Uncorked: Jean-Claude Berrouet and Daniel Baron

Two of the legends in wine, Jean-Claude Berrouet who oversaw 44 vintages at Petrus, and Daniel Baron, winemaker of Silver Oak and Twomey, chat to dbHK about their dream dinner party and why rating wines is absurd.

Jean-Claude Berrouet (left) and Daniel Baron (right) at Ponti Wine Cellar shop in Central, Hong Kong

Revered as a ‘master of Merlot’ for crafting wines with elegance and finesse, Jean-Claude’s friendship with Daniel spans more than four decades from their times at Établissements Jean-Pierre Moueix in Bordeaux to California where the pair worked together at Pétrus, Dominus, and later at Twomey, a winery that has been labelled as California’s answer to Pomerol, thanks to Berrouet’s critical input.

Like two accomplished parents who had just watched their children giving commencement speeches at an Ivy League university, the duo walked into Ponti Wine Cellars’ wine shop in Central, glowing with contentment as they browse through the wine shelves, recalling the vintage challenges and anecdotes behind many Bordeaux wine labels.

Conversations at times were illuminating as the two reminisce about the past vintages together; at times the tone was pointed as they argue against the idea of rating wine. Discussion between the two was boisterous and lively, and covered a breadth of subjects from their birth year vintages and their first introduction to wine, all the way through to what they would imagine themselves to be as a wine.

But the event took an unexpected turn as the duo were walking out after the interview. A female customer in the shop stopped Jean-Claude without knowing who he is and said: “You seem to know your wines well. Do you have some wine suggestions?”

The legendary winemaker without missing a beat proceeded to give her a 10-minute personal shopping guide before heading out. It was perhaps the best wine shopping experience one can ask for.

What vintage are you?

Daniel Baron: 1949. It’s a fabulous year. Shortly after I met Jean-Claude, I was working in Bordeaux at Établissements Jean-Pierre Moueix, and I worked in a commercial cellar racking wine, I knew there was a pallet of 1949 Pétrus sitting in one corner, and I thought someday on my birthday I am gonna drink a 1949 Pétrus. Sure enough, I worked for many years with Christian Moueix – I wanted to say that on my 35th birthday, I dreamt he arrived for a visit and said, ‘Daniel I have a birthday present for you’, and he gave me a box, and I opened it and it was a 1949 Lafleur Pétrus. And then, on my 40th birthday, a 1949 magnum, then my 45th birthday, 49 magnum. Then I thought to myself, ‘for my 50th birthday present, he is going to give me a 1949 Pétrus. He has a plan’.

Then I got this job offer at Silver Oak in 1994, so I thought to myself, do I go or do I stay for my 1949 Pétrus. I decided to go to Silver Oak. Maybe I should ask Christian next time I see him if the 1949 Pétrus was ever on the agenda.

Jean-Claude Berrouet: My vintage is 1942. It wasn’t a good vintage – it was during the war. It was difficult to find people to work in the vineyard and cellar, and the weather was not very good. But it was same as today, but certainly we make better wines now. During the war, it was difficult.

What bottle sparkled your love for wine? 

Jean-Claude: The first time I drank wine, I was six years old with my grandfather. At the beginning of the dinner, he would put a small drop of red wine in the soup, that’s how it started.

Daniel: I think it was when I moved north to the Calistoga area in 1970 [Daniel used to work for Chateau Montelena, an American winery famous for winning the white wine category in the 1976 Judgement of Paris] and I remember a visit to Beringer and tasting their Cabernet Sauvignon. I was very impressed and their Zinfandel, interestingly enough. And that would have been the 1966 and 1967 vintages. They turned out to be very good wines.

What would you be as a wine? 

Jean-Claude: If I were a wine, I’d like to be consumed by a pretty woman. I would be a masculine wine.

Daniel: I would like to be described as an elegant and complex wine that stimulates the intellect like a nice piece of music.

Where are you happiest?

Jean-Claude: Wherever I am. Today I am very happy, yesterday I was very happy. Two months ago, I was in Argentina. Everywhere we go when we are drinking wine, I am happy because it’s a representative of human civilization.

Daniel: In the vineyards. I like to be among the vines, solving some mystery: why did the wine taste that way? Looking at the pruning, exposure and joining the dots.

What is your greatest vice? 

Jean-Claude: I have many vices, it’s difficult to choose one!

Daniel: Cuban cigars.

Best advice you ever got? 

Jean-Claude: Émile Peynaud is a great professor for my first training in winemaking. I have two mentors, one of them for white wine and one for red wine. [What did they tell you though?] It’s a secret!

Daniel: There are two things that I can come to mind – one on the wine side, and another on the management side. This guy [pointing to Jean-Claude], on our first vintage of Dominus, when we were talking about whether to acidify or not. I said the pH was high and I went through the whole list of what could be done. Then Jean-Claude said, ‘you can’t make great wines without taking risks’. So that was very interesting. The other was someone who I didn’t like very much and turned out to be not a very nice person but he said something I have not forgotten, which was, ‘never be afraid to hire someone who is smarter than you’. In fact, I was smarter than him!

Your cellar is underwater, what bottle would you save? 

Jean-Claude: A bottle of Pétrus, the 1964, my first vintage.

DB: First of all, the biggest one! The 6-litre 1961 Pétrus that I wish I had.

What’s the best and worst about the wine industry? 

Jean-Claude: The best is during the harvest because there’s high expectations. Every year, it’s a new job for us.

The worst is also during the harvest because if it was very terrible, you have to make tough decisions.

Daniel: I agree with Jean-Claude. But also it’s the pleasure of seeing the happiness wine can give to people. Their stories about the times they drank wine at their wedding. We had a woman, and we thought she was kind of crazy because she had a tattoo of Silver Oak water tower that runs down her arm. We asked her why she had this tattoo. She said, ‘my father and I whenever we get together – he lived far away and we only saw each other once or twice each year – our ritual was we would have a bottle of Silver Oak, because it’s our favourite wine. He died last year and this helped me to remember him.

The worst moment is when the bottle is empty.

If you have a wine bucket list, what would it be? 

Daniel: He (Jean-Claude) is the wrong person to ask. I think he’s drunk everything. His son brings him many bottles of wines that he would have never thought of or asked to taste, so he enjoys the unexpected and surprises that wine can bring.

I think there are so many lovely wines to drink around the world, certainly more wines from my birth year would be lovely. I haven’t had many 1961 Bordeaux. I would love to have more of the great California wines from André Tchelistcheff from Beaulieu Vineyard ‘Private Reserve Georges de Latour’, the 1941 Inglenook. I would love to have more experiences with the great wines of the southern hemisphere, in particular from Australia and New Zealand. I think what comes to us in the US are the commercial wines, not the great local wines. So there’s a short list.

Who would you invite to your dream party?

Jean-Claude: I would invite Natalie because [you] ask very interesting questions. I’ve never been asked these questions in the past 40 years. Old friends as well, some of whom have now passed. The dinner will start with Bilbao baby eel, with rosé and truffle, and then rare little birds that are outlawed now, but their flavours are so delicious that you have to eat it with a blanket draped over your head because the smell is so good and you don’t want to lose any of the aromas! So white wine with cheese, blue cheese [to go with the dish] and a Pomerol or a Saint Emilion. For sentimental reasons, it would be Château Magdeline, a great property that has been discontinued [Château Magdeline was merged with Château Bélair-Monange].

Daniel: I may start crying but I would first have my parents who I miss terribly. Probably Barack and Michelle Obama. I don’t know how nice he would be but maybe John [Lennon] and Yoko [Ono]. I actually think I will invite a Brazilian Mandolinist named Jacob do Bandolim, André Tchelistcheff, of course, and Jean Veyssiere, cellar master from Château Pétrus who took me under his wing. It’s tough but I would start out with homemade Vietnamese pho. I am not sure what I would serve with that [Daniel turns to Jean-Claude for advice.]

Jean-Claude: I invited you, but you didn’t invite me!

Daniel: I would bring Jean-Claude of course. It’s understood that Jean-Claude would be there! Hopefully Jean Veyssiere, would still have a bit of 1955 Le Canon in the cellar. He would tell the story of how he had to ferment it in barrel because he didn’t have enough tanks. Then we will have a little time to rest, then we will have some lamproie à la bordelaise with duck confit paired with the 61 Pétrus, and then Château d’Yquem 1967, Montecristo No. 2 and a 1963 Quinta do Noval. And I would have my friend Mike Marshall and his wife Caterina Lichtenberg to play mandolin in the background.

If you have to rate yourself, and give yourself a score. What’s the score you would give? 

Jean-Claude: It’s an excellent question. I think it’s ridiculous to give marks. You have to see if the product gives you pleasure. It’s hard to give scores and marks.

Daniel: After extensive research, I am the best Daniel Baron of myself on the planet. I am the best version that exists, hence 100 points. I agree with Jean-Claude that scoring wines is very difficult. I feel some sympathy for writers because I realise we as producers have created a problem because, looking at all the labels, how do you make sense of it? Think of music – do you give a Beethoven 5th 98 or a Chopin piano exercise 98? We all have the experience of getting in the car and playing a loud rock song. Two days later you hate it because you want to hear some classics. Does it mean that you were wrong two days ago? No, you were just in a different mood. We don’t do that with music. We don’t do that with art. We don’t do that with so many different things, but wine is the product that was never the same. You pour into different glasses, different temperatures, you are in a room with a cork wall that gives it different smell, it might have gotten better with age or worse, so it’s a very dynamic and live product. [It’s] even more absurd to put a score on it. But as far as me being me, it’s perfect. Jean Claude is perfect as himself. Jeff [Jeff Berrouet of Chateau Saion] is perfect as himself.

Which wine would you serve at your funeral? 

Jean-Claude: The wine of my family, Chateau Samion 1989 in magnum. It’s not a great wine but it’s a family estate.

Daniel: The first vintage of my yet unnamed project with my son in Mount Veeder in Napa Valley, and so it will be a Baron family winery. My other children will be partners in this venture. I would love that wine to be served and I hope it will be 50 or 60 years old.